Enemies of Liberty are ruthless. To own your Liberty, you'd better come harder than your enemies..

Thursday, November 22, 2012

Secession - Only 180 degrees off target

No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. ~ George Patton

Too many Patriots are thinking improperly, about letting Bad People run them from their birthright.

Liberty will not be won be ceding the field, leaving America to the Enemies of Liberty.

Liberty will be won by driving the other bastards out of our country.



  1. Here's the way I look at it. I like the secession movement. Not because it will work, but because it shows that at least some Americans are getting agitated enough to push back. It also means that calling them "racist" is working much less than it did before. If that tool goes away, that's that much more grip on the American mind that the statists in DC don't have.

    I guess I cheer for them in much the same way as I cheer for the contestants in the special olympics. I like that they are trying, but I'm not sitting here expecting a record. Motion beats apathy, at least.


    1. I'm right there with you, WIII. We can use it as a tool to our advantage. But at the end of the day I think most people would be happy if we got back to respect for the Constitution, and they'd drop the secession.

      But as a tool, short term, it will hit the Enemy like a hammer if we do it properly.


    2. "I think most people would be happy if we got back to respect for the Constitution..."

      Well, you already respect the Constitution. For that matter, we all pretty much did, for pretty much all of our lives. But still, it got us here...not the Constitution of course, but the OTHER people behaving as THEY did with respect to the Constitution, which was (and is) completely ignored in principle.

      The sick part is that these are the people who got to their positions BECAUSE of the Constitution. I don't mean the principles of the Constitution obviously, but the logistics (for lack of a better word) of it.

      So here's the upshot. The MEANS of the Constitution aren't worth doo-doo; we KNOW this because we see what has happened. That's no news, I know, and everyone here is talking about the PRINCIPLES of the Constitution.

      So if you're talking about the principles, then deal with them as principles. Principles are something each individual either accepts or doesn't accept. That's it---there is no other manifestation of principles. That's how the Bad Guys could follow the "logistics" of the Constitution, even as they ignore the principles wholesale.

      I guess all I'm saying is that there's something backwards here. The Constitution contains within it both principles and means. The principles are good; the means apparently suck, judging by where those means have brought us and how far that is from the principles.

      I'm not sure where that leaves anything, except that we KNOW the answer doesn't lie in the means (or logistics) of that particular piece of paper. And absent the means, the paper is worth almost nothing. After all, the principles can be set out in a book or a blog...maybe even a town's Charter.

      Does any of that make sense, or am I just dizzy?

    3. Jim: I'd say the means are there, and they do not suck at all. What sucks, generation after generation, is the willingness of Americans to enforce those means.

      There will always be Bad People who seek to abuse the means and principles - it is the job of We the People to set them right, put them over the border, or in a ditch.


    4. "Jim: I'd say the means are there, and they do not suck at all. What sucks, generation after generation, is the willingness of Americans to enforce those means."

      Word it as you wish, but the facts remain. This election left absolutely no doubt about where the majority of citizens of this country stand. On top of the close majority who elected Obama, there's also a sizable portion of the other side who want basically the same thing. The two together, plus all the sundry statists who didn't even vote, is a large majority. IOW the "willingness of Americans to enforce [Constitutional] means," just ain't there. AND it's not about to be there, not anytime soon.

      I say, "So deal with it." I think extinction of that sizable majority is not a realistic option, at least not at anyone else's hands. Presumably, they'll destroy themselves eventually.

      Either way, it leaves the principles as they are---the principles, duh. I'm just saying that people should stop pretending otherwise, and own this truth. If you think about it carefully, this is the whole point of the Citadel. It's not about having any particular rules enforced--even though there'll be some of those--it's about individuals living freely with the willful recognition of the principles we're talking about.

      Any way you cut it, codifying it in writing is NOT the essential attribute. Besides the obvious logic of that, we also have our extensive experience.

  2. And that's one of the reasons why (oh God, I'm going to catch hell for this) I feel I need to stay where I am. Yes, in California.
    Man, I love this state - I was born here, I'll likely die here, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let the leftists run me out.

    But I'll agree with you on the issue of secession for this reason also: We, as Patriots, have sworn to bring Liberty back to this Nation, not divide it.
    I believe they have valid points and complaints but I never have been one to cut and run, you know?

    1. I believe the same thing, Kenny.

      This is MY fucking state, and MY fucking home.

      No commie-lib or government goon is gonna chase me off of it without a fight.

    2. Believe me, I get it. Until the Citadel concept evolved, I was committed to staying right here and when the time came, fighting within this AO that is my home.

      And if I thought I could get away with a Citadel in the DC Metro, I'd give it a whirl, but it'll never happen, and even if it did, it would not survive because the means of self-sufficiency don't exist here.

      Idaho is still "home" for me, in that it is the US. One day I'll come back to my birth home and make it right, but the ground has to change a LOT before I could make any difference here.

      One thing many of us who are going to the Citadel hope to accomplish is a network that will be able to help Patriots who decide to stay in place when the rough stuff begins. So, watch your flanks, one day you may have a few folks from Idaho suddenly show up with beans, bullets, bandaids. ;)


  3. Secession is the start of retaking the Country and the Constitution. Even if this little spark doesn't burst into flame another soon will as long as we continue down the path we are on with the Left calling the shots and importing new voters daily.

    In the end it will be a matter of sheer survival.

    1. Yep - if we can use secession to rattle a few cages and force the Enemies of Liberty to spend energy on the topic, Liberty benefits.

      Ultimately I'd support secession 100% - if we decide to let a state secede and we force march every Marxist and Liberal puke in the remaining 49 into their new hell-hole. ;)


    2. Well there's always Columbia (District of). Then we wouldn't need to lose a state. Barring that, I hear Nevada is a lovely place this time of year. ;)

  4. People are waking up faster than most of us realize I think. They've just finally HAD ENOUGH. This is an outlet. A much needed pressure release valve. It'll give people the courage they need to stand up to the machine. And people are doing it despite being called racist, etc, and despite being threatened by the leftists with losing their citizenship, etc.

    This is what we need to see in this country. People who have finally had it and are willing to say 'up yours!'.

    Then, we'll be getting somewhere. :)

    1. J: Correct. We win if people start using their voices. If nothing else, we begin to identify with that percentage of people who will never go to the Green, but will support the move.


  5. I believe the secession movement, as it were, will fail, unfortunately. .gov will not allow any states to remove their consent from the contract without the sacrifice of at least 600,000 people; this has been proven once. It's akin to being forced to remain in a marriage where the husband beats and otherwise abuses the wife and children and when the wife sues for divorce, the courts won't allow it, amicably or otherwise (think Sharia law here) and then sentence the wife to a public flogging for asking to leave the voluntary contract.

    The plain historical facts of the matter are simple: The states who ratified the Constitution always believed they had the right to secede from the contract if all parties were not living up to their end of the bargain. One of the northern States, Connecticut, was one of the first to threaten secession very early on after ratification, so it wasn't just the South, and it wasn't over slavery. It was always over State's Rights and federal usurpation of those rights.

    Fast forward through our history to today, and it's apparent even to the blind that .gov has proven beyond any measurement that it will not comply with its constitutional limitations.

    But as to the suggestion to march all the 'enemies of liberty to their new hell hole', let's say for example, that Idaho, a state near and dear to me for family reasons, seceded. I'd support it 100 percent, and not just because a good portion of my family lives there. I'd support it because the State has that right to refuse to participate in a contract nullified by the other party, in this case, the governing structure created by the contract. And I also don't believe the enemies of liberty would start packing up to move their. They'd be met at the borders by defenders of liberty and be told to go back where they came from.

    Let us not be too quick to say, "union now, union forever", because lawfully, there is nothing within the Constitution that binds a state eternally to the union, no matter which direction it takes.

    Once folks accept the fact that the War of Northern Aggression, popularly known as CWI, was not fought over slavery, but was fought to require the seceding states to reamin within the union against their will, they will come to understand that CWII, if fought, will be a different conflict: One for control of the existing government. If FREEFOR fights for and wins, and then requires all states to remain in a union they no longer wish, FREEFOR will have become that which it fought, and will become tyrannical in its own right.

    Freedom and liberty are not forced upon 'free' people. Association is done by consent, not force.

    My .02

  6. K said:
    "So, watch your flanks, one day you may have a few folks from Idaho suddenly show up with beans, bullets, bandaids".

    And should the Citadel find itself in trouble, it's enemies may find a few thousand Militia astride their MSRs. Route Irish would be seen as a cake walk by comparison.

    Of course the Citadel may find itself in need of a few armored semis full of B,B&Bs too. We'd be happy to oblige.

  7. Trainer,

    Agreed in principle. The real issue is a forced Union.
    The negation of Individual and States rights by a Tyrannical Federal Gov. is the root of our dilemma, along with a corrupt plutocracy that owns the Fed Gov.

    Many states already have de facto socialist governments.
    New York, California,Illinois and Massachusetts come to mind.

    If they chose to leave the union and establish a communist Confederation could we rightfully consider such a clear and present danger to our remaining States, as well as our homes and families?

    If such States refused to allow emigration of objectors would we be duty bound to eliminate the threat such states would represent?

    This whole topic is a new can of worms for Constitutionalists.

    1. Not a new can of worms from my perspective. I was born into this world with the promise that America consisted of our current borders and was promised to offer the minimum levels of Liberty outlined in the Constitution.

      It would be as unconstitutional to "elect" Stalin who would ignore the Constitution as it would be to elect Romney, who'd do the same. And if every FreeFor suddenly left Kansas and the remaining socialists decided to secede and make a socialist state that would deny Constitutional Rights to Americans who visit would be a security risk that is unacceptable.

      But that's just me. It's not so much a forced union, it is about a minimal level of Rights (as outlined in the Constitution and BoR). If Kansas were to secede and set their bar for Natural Rights higher than Constitutional, I'd say we have no right to interfere.


    2. "I was born into this world with the promise that America consisted of our current borders and was promised to offer the minimum levels of Liberty outlined in the Constitution."

      Me too; so were all of us. So what? That promise was broken, right? Okay, so it was broken; lots of people don't keep their promises. Big deal; it happened. Sure it's not right, but again so what?

      Nothing YOU can do can MAKE someone else keep their promises, least of all a politician or LEO type. You know this, but you keep implying that you're either going to get rid of all those people who won't keep the promise of Rightful Liberty, or somehow make them all keep that promise.

      Sorry to be blunt, but get real. Neither of those are going to happen. They're not about to change willfully--they told you that in the election--and you're not about to get rid of them all, not even with all the help of all the militias.

      So what does that leave? It leaves what you're doing---forgetting about their insane objectives and putting yourself in as well-protected and defensive a position as possible, just in case they STILL don't stop, even after you move far away from them.

      Makes sense to me. In fact, I personally can't think of any other realistic alternative. Maybe all I'm saying is this...don't get distracted from the real goal, in pursuit of some "higher cause" that ain't gonna happen anyway. Freedom may be worth dying for, but dead people aren't free.

    3. "If Kansas were to secede and set their bar for Natural Rights higher than Constitutional, I'd say we have no right to interfere."

      Whatever Kansas chose to do under the concept of "self determination" would negate our 'right' to interfere in their internal issues.

      Presenting a clear danger to the Free USA is a different matter, and could easily be handled constitutionally through a Congressional Declaration of War.....or through an issue of Letters of Marque an Reprisal.

      It's important not to pre-empt the process we hold dear within the Constitution and other founding documents....

      My .02

    4. "If they chose to leave the union and establish a communist Confederation could we rightfully consider such a clear and present danger to our remaining States, as well as our homes and families?"

      Great question, but remember, if they chose to leave the union and establish such a government under self-determination, the remaining states, through constitutional process, would either mandate a Declaration of War, once attacked (pre-emptive strikes are not constitutional per original intent), or attempt a peaceful co-existence until such time (most likely very quickly) that the communists decided to encroach on our sovereign territory. Then, of course, we'd be back to the declaration, and at that point, I'd favor emulating Lieutenant General Thomas Jackson in raising the black flag.

      My .02

  8. If you take all of the Califs and other out of staters out of Nevada that have brought all their liberal asshattery and force through their poplulation swelling of Reno and Las Vegas you have a conservative western population that just wants to be left alone and are decent people.

    I say to hell with giving our enemies their own state, give them 48 hours to leave our borders, then start walking them at gunpoint into the Pacific and Atlantic oceans. Let them rule the fishes.

    1. Careful, Professor. Sometimes those ivory halls start to look real, and that's nearly always a problem. Besides, what do you have against fishes?

    2. Rule the fishes? Or sleep with them ;)

    3. Sometimes, Miss Violet, I think you can see my notes. ;)


    4. ...and if you can't see my notes, that means there are two of us who think this way.

      The world may be in trouble.


  9. You can't see me Klein but I'm sticking my tongue out at you.

    BG knows exactly what I meant. ;)

  10. Even Ol' Georgie new when it was time to consolidate forces. I think that has more to do with the Seccesion Movement then actually Secceding. We are a very spreadout group of people and the Citidel is a start towards gathering of the Clans, but even that has the flavore of Secession. At the momunt we are out numbered and scatered and that has people feeling like thier flanks are hanging in thin air.


  11. Secesion may be a temporary solution, but remember that the problem is perennial: There will always be enemies of Liberty who live within our borders - that warning is plain enough in Jesus words, "Think I come to bring you peace? Nay, rather I bring you a sword..."

    Just because you mowed the grass and weeded the fields last week doesn't mean they don't need it again this week. Some things are never done; they must forever be repeated in keeping with their natural cycles. We all know the proverb, "For everything there is a season..."

    And so I say this, "Forever more, if we choose to remain a free people, we must raise our young men up in the tradition of active militia life, and pass along to them the full knowlege and forebearance which vigilance demands of every defender of Liberty - that each generation must take their turn and mow down a few weeds, lest the land of their inheritance again be laid fallow and overgrown with that which produces not, but consumes much, as we now face. Yet their forebearnace must be equal to their zeal, lest they become the evil which we all despise, and our Lady Liberty again face death at the hands of her own children." This is the legacy which Liberty demands we sustain...nothing less has ever sufficed, nor ever shall.

    Now, to our generation comes the unpleasant task of reclaiming the rectitude and dignity of our nation, after several generations without proper weeding and maintenance. Whereas the invading seedlings could have been mown down easily in their day, there are now many formidable trees to be cut with large roots to clear beneath the surface, and yes there will be great disruption as a result. But if we suffer the passing of yet another generation, there shall be no field left for us to restore, as our nation will have been over-run by these invasive species which deplete the soil entirely. Then, only a total conflagration will suffice to free the soil of its' burden down to the roots, and return in ashes that which was leeched out of it by such un-natural growth.

    I claim no amazing capacity for work, neither any profound wisdom; yet I do not hesitate to work hard, for being useful brings it's own reward...and it does not take much wisdom to fear the wrath of a jealous G_D on the day when He judges a nation which has removed itself far from His protection and providence.

    As for any maltreatment which the EoL may attempt to inflict upon my person, I fear it not, nor shall the threat of it ever disuade me from pursuing my eternal hope. Death has no fangs against the souls of the faithful...it feeds only upon the lost.

    One thing, and one thing alone do I fear - that the remnant who posess the spirit of American Liberty shall be so few, so disorganized, that He shall see fit to scatter them to the four winds, rather than granting them the grace and forbearance to see Rightful Liberty restored upon our land.
    It is against this singular unacceptable consequence which I have committed to spend every last breath of my life; every dime of my money; and if it be called for, every last round of ammunition upon which I can lay hands, to defeat.

    If you are a friend of Liberty, take heart, for there are many who feel as we do.

    If you are an Enemy of Liberty, be afraid - hesitate, and be very afraid, because while it will be you who starts this war, you will NEVER live to see victory. Because while we may not win in this generation, we will spend all that we have and all that we are NOT TO LOOSE THE FIGHT, and we shall pass our spirit and our faith down, generation to generation, forever. We will outlive you, until even the memory of you is dead.


    ~Those who abuse Liberty, do so at their own peril!


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