The Citadel is to be a martial fortification, a town of Riflemen and Patriots oathbound to protect one another and defend Jefferson's Rightful Liberty.
"Rules" should be "no-brainers" for serious Patriots, and serve a secondary function of helping exclude people we would not want among us anyway.
OK folks - there is some beginning language. Do with it what you will.
As such, those who will choose to live within the walls of the town, and those who choose to maintain an emergency residence within the walls, shall all voluntarily agree to abide the following Conditions in accord with the laws of the united States and the State of Idaho:
Preamble: We the People come together in this covenant of our free will and do pledge our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor to defend one another and Jefferson's Rightful Liberty, defined as unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others.
One: Once ratified, this list of conditions may only be altered by unanimous consent of all parties governed by the Agreement,
Two: Every able-bodied Patriot (aged 12(?) and older) governed by this Agreement will demonstrate proficiency with the rifle of his choice by hitting a man-sized steel target at 100 yards with open sights at the Citadel range,
Three: Every able-bodied Patriot (aged 12(?) and older) governed by this Agreement will demonstrate proficiency with a handgun of choice by hitting a man-sized steel target at 25 yards with open sights at the Citadel range,
Four: Every able-bodied Patriot of age within the Citadel will be stocked with X rifles in the following X calibers and X handguns in the following X calibers, the responsibility for providing arms and ammunition shall be the head of household for every member of the household. Every able-bodied Patriot will be responsible for maintaining an Emergency Go Bag or Muster Kit to satisfy the Minuteman concept. Details TBD.
Five: Every household within the Citadel will remain stocked with sufficient food, water and other preps (to be detailed elsewhere) for every member of the household for a duration of one year,
Six: Every able-bodied Patriot (aged 12(?) and older) shall pass a bi-annual class sponsored by the Citadel on basic emergency medical care, the courses focused on battlefield and wilderness environments,
Seven: Every child attending Citadel schools, with discretion for maturity, shall have as part of every class semester a basic marksmanship and safety firearms curriculum (with attendance/training of the parent if so desired) leading to the proficiency test at age 12(?) as a "Coming of Age" moment,
Eight: All Patriots shall agree to remain armed with a sidearm whenever visiting the Citadel Town Center. (This is a practical matter of never being caught with our pants down, as well as a PR move to help show our tourist visitors that a town filled with armed Americans is the safest place on Earth)
Nine: Each Household will provide ONE able-bodied Patriot (aged 16 and older) who shall muster one Saturday per month for Martial/Support Training, as set forth by the elders of the community, and once annually a full scale Town Defense Drill for all households and residents.
Ten: Town Militia will hold a yearly award/recognition ceremony on April 19th each year to celebrate Patriot's Day. This will be a public event with all families welcome and encouraged to attend.
Eleven: Violations of this Agreement will result in review by a selection of residents and an appropriate disciplinary action taken, up to the most severe action of the loss of Lease and expulsion from the community. The town shall have a stockade in Town Square to be used in proscribed circumstances in accord with this and other governing Agreements. No Citizen of the Citadel shall ever be forced to submit to punishment, but may be shunned or banished if the Citizen fails to voluntarily submit to any decreed discipline,
Twelve: All Citizens agree to accept dispute resolution by an arbitration panel of peers in the event a problem can not be resolved between residents.
Thirteen...
I'll update the above as we discuss and come to consensus below.
Kerodin
III
Nine: Each Household will provide ONE able-bodied Patriot (aged 16 and older) who shall muster one Saturday per month for Martial Training, as set forth by the elders of the community.
ReplyDeleteThese monthly Musters will follow Militia Standards for squad level tactics, Movement drills, Communications, Rapid Reload drills, Malfunction clearance drills, House clearing drills, etc.
These monthly Musters will be supervised/led by community volunteers with Military/Militia experience.
Yearly Training will culminate with a full scale Town Defense Drill for all households.
Effectively an FTX for repelling invaders, defending town strong points, establishing checkpoints and blocking positions.
This Drill will have a time limit of 24 hours.
Town Militia will hold a yearly award/recognition ceremony on April 19th each year to celebrate Patriot's Day. This will be a public event with all families welcome and encouraged to attend.
(http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/us/patriots-day)
That's it for now.
Anybody have a problem with such a requirement? It seems pretty darned pragmatic and essential to me.
DeleteKerodin
III
I agree with this requirement. It makes sense. I would add that a second able bodied Patriot (if applicable) would muster one day each month to train on a support activity to those above. Everyone should have a job to do whether it be at the front or in support.
DeleteChad Miller
What happens as the population ages and a married elderly couple may not have either spouse who can perform the required duties? Will that couple then be banished from the kingdom?
DeleteAnon: Of course not. The phrase "Able-bodied" is in the Agreement, and as has been discussed, we intend to have a full infrastructure to care for our elderly.
DeleteThere will be no indignity for the aging among us.
K
(reposted to this blog post at Kerodin's request.)
ReplyDeleteThat looks frighteningly reasonable. LOL.
The only reservation I would have is the age-based requirements. I realize our current society is very hung up on age as a determining factor of maturity/responsibility, but some would be ready to qualify on the range at 5 years old, and some might not be until they are much older. It seems to me there might be a better way to decide when someone is ready rather than depending on birthdays. Perhaps let the person tell you when they are ready, and then poll their family and friends before making a decision about letting them take the test.. Perhaps if a person hasn't asked to qualify by the time they are 14 or 15, a little encouragement and tutoring might be in order.
I see you only mention "able-bodied"; would there be flexible requirements based upon ability? Maybe a blind resident couldn't shoot, but could show proficiency on a HAM radio or some other valuable skill.
About the food/water/ammo requirements: Are the residents expected to move in with the stocks already in hand, or is there a grace period for acquiring the stuff?
Thanks, Kent. This way your input won't be lost or buried.
DeleteAs to the age of children, I would always add the caveat that the Parents have final say. Since I do not have children and have only my own experiences as a guide, I'd rely on the input on others.
Able-bodied would surely be flexible. Everyone will be able to contribute in some manner, we just have to work together to find the best fit.
As to preps, I'd say everyone would have a grace period to be sure, and that we'd try to use the collective buying power of the Citadel to help negotiate the best prices. I think it was Vernon who suggested that we employ the power of co-ops, and he's right.
I like being "Frighteningly reasonable" ;)
K
What do you do if the the people can't afford the emergency food requirments for every person in the household. One year of emergency food for each person can be quite expensive.
DeletePapa Mike
III
PapaMike: We'll find a way to help everyone get there. Everyone will be coming with different skills, life experiences, debts and other variables. We'll make sure we cover one another everywhere, from the walls and defense to making sure our older and sick get care and our kids learn to read, write and compute.
DeleteIII to III.
Kerodin
III
I would like to put something forth. If we are to have rules in which we agree to abide by (to which I agree) we should make sure the language we use is straightforward and to the point. We don't want to have "depends on what is means" baloney.
ReplyDeleteIt might be profitable to outline or literally show what we mean when certain words are used. For example welfare - it meant something entirely different in 1789 than it does today.
Doing this will define the limits in which we agree and stops (hopefully) any weaselling in the future if someone breaks the agreement.
Lastly, we need to determine the consequences of a breaking of a portion of the agreement.
Maybe a lot of what I have said has been covered in previous posts. I have been busy the past month and have yet to read all of the comments...
Chad Miller
Chad: Agreed. And this is the place to narrow and refine our language. Simple is better, so there can be no weaseling out of ambiguous words later.
DeleteAnd when we get to consequences, we need to not only consider the range of penalties, but who gets to impose such penalties.
This is one of the most important threads we will have regarding the Citadel.
K
Simple is better in this thread, folks. An economy of words, and we should strive to reach a Jeffersonian level of clarity - maximum understanding with a minimum of words.
ReplyDeleteK
from Richard Maybury's, "Uncle Eric" series [must have/read/study for independent(home-)-schoolers]: The Two Fundamental Laws (the 17-words): 1) Do all you have AGREED to do; 2) Do not encroach on other people or their property. http://chaostan.com/books.html
DeleteHe makes a challenge within his books for readers to shorten the 17, yet retain the full meaning. Here's mine - though I've never written him with it: 1) Keep your word; 2) Stay out of others' faces, spaces, and stuff.
I'm so interested in this project of yours...
Sincerely,
Patrice S.
The ultimate sanction is to lose your lease in the Citadel, but that should probably be reserved for willful non compliance as opposed to, say, inability to meet a particular standard that you are making a good faith effort to comply with. There are needs other than front line rifleman (observer, commm operator, cook, magazine loader, etc.). As long as someone is willing and able to fill one of those needs they should be considered to be doing their part. Membership privileges in The Citadel Society and the Co-Op could be used as positive motivators to meeting all the requirements.
ReplyDeleteThe rifle/pistol requirement should be per person, rather than per household. There could easily be anywhere from one to a dozen people in one household. The pistol is generally a last ditch/emergency weapon, so isn't too critical and can be a personal choice - but no less than a 9mm. The rifle should be standard, probably an AR as both ammo and magazine compatibility would be essential. That way we could bring a container of preloaded magazines to a fighting position and everyone could use them. Over the longer term, magazines are a consumable item, so having a large supply of compatible ones also makes the most sense from a logistics standpoint. That doesn't preclude having other additional rifles in other calibers and it may make sense to have special teams with heavier caliber rifles, but we definitely want to stick to military calibers for required firearms.
Probably don't need a minimum age for qualifying (maturity is more important than age - I like Kent's suggestions), rather we need a maximum age that you need to be qualified by, maybe 16 at the oldest. Facility use privileges in the Citadel could maybe be tied to qualifying, to help provide motivation.
At age 18 the choice would have to be made to comply with the agreement or move outside the walls.
I'm good with these rules, including number nine.
VJ
Well said, good points.
DeleteMiss Violet
Good points indeed. I like and agree with the maximum qualifying age of 16.
DeleteAs for the 9mm minimum requirement. There should be extenuating circumstances. My 8yr old son can handle a 22 revolver with ease, but a 9mm auto would prove difficult for him right now. The same may be said of the older patriots. (That opens a can of worms over a maximum age of militia participation)
RedWulf
RedWulf,
DeleteThe qualifier "able bodied" should be applied everywhere it is appropriate. That would encompass age, health, disability, etc., and cover militia participation especially.
Also, I'm pretty sure we agree that all requirements for a child under the age of 18 are subject to parental oversight and adjustment. We could still have privileges tied to qualifying to help provide motivation, though.
VJ
I would agree to all nine of the above requirements.
ReplyDeleteI do have something to add to a couple of them.
# 6- the requirement of all to have basic medical care training. I think this is a good thing, but I think basic first aid isn't going to cut it in the type of situation that we could be involved in. I think wilderness and battle first aid might be more appropriate. I might be wrong because it's been 20 years since I had EMT training, but I think a lot of that type of training relies on tech support any more and that might not be available in a shtf situation. I know we have EMS people out there, they need to weigh in on this.
#7. I agree, each child will have a different maturity level and parents will have to help with the decision of when the child is ready. But, honestly, if the rifle culture is there from day one, it will be absorbed. I agree that a certain age shouldn't be mandatory, but still have it as a goal, with, as K suggested it being a right of passage, and make it a big deal. Of course there will be some "catch up" initially when we have children brought in from the anti gun culture that is present now in our society.
Miss Violet
Negligent discharge of a firearm within Citadel proper gets you 24hrs (3ea 8hr days) in the stocks located in the main square.
ReplyDeleteNegligent discharge with property damage gets you 2wks in our prison w/ 4hrs a day (10A-2P) in the stocks located in the main square.
Negligent discharge with injury or death....public hanging (in the gallows next to the stocks) and we build the next sidewalk using your ashes.
(this includes 'missing' a criminal and hitting a bystander...since a "Nation of Riflemen" shouldn't miss, nor ignore 'Cooper's Rules')
Wow - you realllly want those stockades, don't you! ;)
DeleteK
I would modify that into the person receiving the injury or damage has a say whether the full penalty is carried out.
DeleteAlso "property damage" needs to be defined. Shooting the grass in my front lawn is different then blasting a hole in my front door.
What of pets? A subject not yet broached. Are they considered property? Will there be a limit on size and number. My idea of too big, too many, will be different than my neighbors.
We could also train dogs for use in border security, the can be invaluable as such.
RedWulf
Our "friends" in .gov probably wouldn't let us go so far as a hanging, which is probably for the best considering how very serious that is.
DeleteI don't know if millerized is serious (I suspect he is) and his ideas have merit, but I'm sure we would be limited by what the levels of government above us would allow, even for the "lesser" crimes.
Even so, elsewhere I've suggested binding arbitration and the stocks might be one viable option for an arbitration outcome.
I suspect that they would get minimal use, since the type of people who move into the Citadel are those who want to live this way in the first place.
VJ
I can agree to restitution, but not stocks or hanging (not "even" if it is my property or family who is harmed). That makes "us" too similar to that which we seek to be distinct from.
DeleteActually, I agree with you Kent. Restitution, either directly to the victim or through service to the community if that is not possible for some reason. Our internal society can and should be peaceful and non violent. Once you start down the road of using force to control others it always ends up where we are in today's society.
DeleteWhat if someone won't make restitution? Banishment from the "tribe" is the alternative. We are starting from the assumption that everyone in the Citadel really wants to be there and really wants to stay, so they would very much want to avoid that outcome. Even carrying out a banishment could be non violent. If your name is posted and everyone knows not to deal with you, leaving becomes the best option.
VJ
One more crucial element that we need - agreement to binding arbitration. Either a single, mutually selected arbitrator or a panel of 12, all members in good standing of the Citadel. Loser pays the cost of arbitration.
ReplyDeleteBinding arbitration covers most of the common situations that don't rise to the level of government defined crimes and even there we may want to insist on arbitration first before any charges are brought for anything less than a major felony. Also, arbitration usually focuses on making the victim whole rather than simply punishing someone - a better outcome in many ways.
We need to be as independent and self governing as possible, both to prove that it is doable and to protect us from government "help".
I agree.
DeleteFive: Every household within the Citadel will remain stocked with sufficient food, water and other preps (to be detailed elsewhere) for every member of the household for a duration of one year,
ReplyDeleteWater is heavy and bulky. The Red Cross says you need a gallon a day but that is for short term situations. 2-3 gallons a day is probably more reasonable for cooking and some relatively basic hygiene (no showers or flush toilets, etc). Lets just say 2 gallons for easy math. A family of 4 would need 8 gallons for a day, 56 gallons a week or a bit over 2,900 gallons for a year. That amount of water weighs over twenty four THOUSAND POUNDS. The logistics of storing that sort of water in every residence and building structures that will support the those loads would be problematic.
Maybe pooling resources into a solid pump setup with redundant power sources and or communal tanks (to drive down costs of infrastructure and deal with space/ weight issues in residences) could provide a more reasonable solution.
I believe we touched on the idea of cisterns utilizing all of our rooftops, which would generate a lot of run off as a water supply. While we are as rain drenched as farther west, we still get decent amounts of rain.
DeleteMiss Violet
"While we are as rain drenched as farther west, we still get decent amounts of rain."
DeleteMake that, while we are NOT as rain drenched....
Miss Violet
Might want to watch these seditious suggestions. ;)
DeleteRecently the feds have punished people for collecting the rainwater that drips off their roof; saying it belongs to the government.
The logistics of the preps are not really for this thread, but every home and building, even the curtain wall will be designed to take advantage of rainwater, snow melt and water storage & filtration. A 5000 gallon water-rated tank is not very expensive on a per-house basis.
ReplyDeleteModern composting toilets eliminate the need for blackwater sewage, and leave us with only greywater to worry about - which can be handled with household filtration, with water used for irrigation and so forth.
The simple reality is that to make this community viable we will make many Greenies happy because using green technology in many cases will be the cheapest, most prudent answer.
But we'll get into the logistics elsewhere.
Let's focus on rules that will be required to provide for the common defense.
K
Rule Zero: I agree to support the Jeffersonian concept of Rightful Liberty and treat all Citadel citizens accordingly. That covers our social contract with each other.
ReplyDeleteThe entire rest of this post is about one thing only - us looking each other in the eye, shaking hands and agreeing to defend our home and agreeing on what minimum actions are necessary to accomplish that goal.
VJ
Has there been an idea of what the minimum amount of funds will be needed to move into the Citadel? Taking in the expense of weapons, ammo, emergency food I would like to know what is a bare minimum needed.
ReplyDeletePapa Mike
III
PapaMike: Nope, not yet. Much will depend upon what home style and lot size each Patriot/Family wants.
DeleteBut I made a promise very early in this project that Patriots who are part of this from the beginning (like you and everyone reading this blog) that money (or lack of money) will not be a barrier to serious Patriots who want to live among us, so long as they are willing to contribute to the community.
I can't say I have worked out "How" I am going to make that happen just yet, but it will happen. It will probably be done case-by-case and together we'll work out something that benefits everyone.
But age and income alone will not be barriers for serious Patriots.
I'll offer more tangible answers when I can.
K
PapaMike,
DeleteEarly on I expect this to be very much a bootstrap operation. I expect to show up and live in a camper or trailer and start building. We all want this to work and want to be prepared. If you show up with a rifle, backpack and tent and are willing to work towards our goal then as far as I'm concerned, you have met the minimum requirements.
As K has said, for anyone who sincerely wants to be a part of the Citadel and make this thing happen, we'll find a way.
VJ
I found this blog a few days ago and have been reading everything I can on this concept. A link was posted to a foraging forum that I contribute to. I must admit, I was a bit skeptical at first, as most groups that have even remotely suggested this kind of thing are all talk and no action. You actually have skin in the game, and are doing it, and for that, have my deepest respect and admiration.
DeleteFinally, Patriots that do more than talk. I never thought I'd see the day. Bravo, Bravisimo!
The only barrier for me would be the financial one, but I'm determined to find a way come hell or high water. This is what I've been waiting my whole life for. I was born for this.
I like the basic structure of the rules, they make sense. As far as the cost of housing, I could be very comfortable and quite happy in a small hut!.... (but that's just me).
ReplyDeleteI updated the draft above. Don't get too hung up on verbiage just yet, but definitely be thinking about final, concise language.
ReplyDeleteA few thoughts: The Citadel should have some sort of badges/patches/awards just like the scouts and military for demonstrated proficiency at various tasks and levels of skill. This would serve the same purpose as in the scouts/military: motivation, morale, cohesion, pride, personal development, et cetera. A few thoughts on this would be appreciated, though not necessarily germain to this thread.
Who decides when to close the gates? Who decides when to go to arms or various stages of alert?
As you consider these possible structures, remember that while we are to be a town of Riflemen and Patriots, we are also to be a town with tourists and we must be forever cognizant of public perception. Tourists must not see a town of uniformed Right Wing Extremists. But at the same time, as much as I am not fond of a hierarchy or chain of command, we need to figure out what structure we will use to make sure someone is always watching the walls...
Thoughts? If this topic is too distracting, say so and I'll start another thread. But I think everyone inside the walls is "We the People" which means "We are the Militia" which means it is relevant...
K
Need someone to be a first among equals. Or perhaps several. I don't know if the decision of closing the gates should be left to any one person, yet if too many have sway over that decision enemies will stroll in while we debate on what to do.
DeleteRedWulf
I would lean toward a separate thread. Militia organization and defense planing are a step above basic requirements, I think.
DeleteVJ
"Who decides when to close the gates? Who decides when to go to arms or various stages of alert?"
DeletePerhaps let people volunteer for this sort of task on a monthly basis. And probably not let them do more than one month per year, or some other limit. You don't want anyone to get "entrenched" and make it a career, but it would be good to let everyone who is interested in taking the responsibility get some experience. In case the person in charge of the gate is incapacitated, maybe the guy who was last month's gatekeeper would automatically make the call.
For the badges/patches/awards, I would think that every household that has qualified gets a plaque to hang on the front of their house (with adders for each individual that qualifies... kinda like military awards, stars are added for each time the award is received). The plaque remains as long as the qualification is met. In a community this size, we will mostly know where everyone lives and so we will remember whether the plaque is present. It will be a motivator to achieve that goal too (ie, all of my neighbors have their plaques, but I don't have mine). I would personally prefer something on the house over something that I have to wear and/or carry with me to prove anything. (I rarely wear hats and I don't typically like putting anything on my clothing)
DeleteAs for the security of the gates. It is very easy to set up a good system of security cameras these days. These cameras can be set up to alarm at motion in a certain area of their view (or just about any other variable you want to program), they can also have facial recognition so that they won't alarm if Jim (for example) walks up to the walls to check out a firing port from the outside but they would alarm if a tourist walked up to the same spot (I am assuming we plan to have a "no-go" zone around our walls). The alarm could alert our towns "police department" (which would be volunteers that are trained and deputized by the sheriff). So, a good camera system would be the first level of security. As for "closing the gates", I think everyone should have the ability to shut the gates and/or trigger a general alarm at any time, but there needs to be consequences for a false alarm and the Citadel's security personnel would have to examine each instance to determine the level of the consequences for that false alarm (a child triggering a closure "just because he thought it would be funny" gets a worse punishment than someone closing the gates because a line of humvees is rolling towards the Citadel that turn out to be a bunch of rich tourists). My biggest problem with only having designated people authorized to close the gates is that I may see something that sets my internal alarms off and it requires immediate action but I have to try to get ahold of the right person (and was it Jim, or Kent, or Sam this month?) I suppose there are ways we could work around this with proper communications and identification, but I'm hesitant to restrict it.
Mark- Maybe you don't have to remember who is this month's "right person" to alert if part of the "job" involves passing around a pager/radio for each "job"... or maybe an alarm system (like pulling a fire alarm inside a hospital) would sound the alert to get all the right people moving in the right directions. To prevent tourists from pulling the alarm, maybe a simple PIN number (either system-wide or individualized) would be required to activate the system and sound the alarm
DeleteThat was one of the thoughts I started mulling over after I posted the above.
DeleteI think that having a radio on the right person would be a good option. Another thought I had was somehow tying that radio directly into call boxes that are stationed around the Citadel so that the person that sees the thing can talk directly to the proper person and tell them what they are seeing and why they are contacting him/her.
The only reason I don't like the "fire alarm" type setup is that when the alarm goes off, nobody really knows why until they show up. They may be getting an alarm for an actual fire, but they show up ready for invaders. If we went with a pinpad activation system, I guess we could program different alarm buttons (ie, press "1" for fire, press "2" for invader, press "3" for wolves, etc). But there is really no way to put an option for every possible scenario, which is why I think talking directly to someone to report the problem is the better choice.
I propose that the AR-15 in 5.56 NATO be our designated militia rifle. It's relatively lighter weight and recoil make it suitable for the wide variety of militia members we will have.
ReplyDeleteBeing able to use recovered ammo and magazines after any conflict is more likely also, as this is such a common weapon.
VJ
I agree. It is the most common rifle/caliber with the .gov alphabets.
DeletePerhaps with #4 every able bodied person be required to have at minimum two rifles. The AR15 in 5.56 NATO and a second rifle and caliber of their choosing. Should be the same for a pistol also.
RedWulf
I'm going to agree with the AR-15 in 5.56 NATO as our "Standard Rifle", so if anyone has something to say, now is the time. If you challenge the AR, please explain why another platform would be better, and is your choice as prominent in the LEO world so we can use captured gear?
DeleteI am also going to nominate the 1911 in .45 ACP as the "Standard Pistol", with a rule that every Patriot also own a sidearm that can eat 9mm.
Any objections?
K
Perhaps adding to that a firearm that takes .40 since .gov agencies are stockpiling that caliber.
DeleteRedWulf
I agree with all of these just want to bring up a point on #4. Forgive me if it has already been addressed in another reply, haven't read them all yet. My point has not to do with the number of rifles and handguns per able bodied individual but with the calibers of each. Now I see what we are attempting to set up, everyone with same caliber means easy to share ammunition and for the rifles I am sure we are all looking at 5.56x45 (.223).
ReplyDeleteIt is with the handgun caliber I am concerned about. Personally I carry a Sig of the .40 variety and I am extremely comfortable with it which in turn makes me a more accurate shooter. I also know that a lot of my Patriot brothers and sisters prefer a .45 caliber and I respect that choice. Again if you are comfortable with you tools you are more accurate with them. Hence my dilemma, I don’t want to dictate to someone they have to carry a caliber of sidearm they are less comfortable with just of the sake of sufficient ammunition. However, if we all have the same caliber then ensuring we have sufficient stores and not having a minority of Patriots shoulder the burden of acquiring sufficient stores of ammunition. If anyone has thoughts I would like to hear a way forward from this conundrum.
MAJ Wolf
I agree, Maj. Wolf. I think where we are headed is a requirement to have a firearm that eats the major ammo most likely to be encountered: .223, .308, .22, 9mm, .40, .45 are the "majors" I think.
DeleteIn addition, there will be a town Armory that can carry the weight of "other major" firearms, like .30-06, .38/.357, .44spl/.44Mag, etc.
In my mind I don't care if people own handguns or carbines to eat the handgun ammo, for instance. As long as the Patriot has a firearm to eat the most common calibers, we're good.
That said, I do think we may need to set a "Standard" of some sort for one rifle or 1-2 handguns, so magazines can be shared, spare parts pirated, et cetera.
If the armory has a few hundred .44 magnum revolvers, for instance, and we come across a pallet of .44 spl or .44 mag ammo, we'll be able to hand out weapons to eat the ammo, rather than force everyone to own a dozen different firearms.
K
In regards to the handgun. It should be the same as with the rifle. Every able bodied person has one of the same make and caliber. A stipulation though could be that its required to have, but you may carry whatever you want and leave the required pistol at home. Then, in a worst case scenario, parts mags and ammo will be simpler to deal with.
DeleteRedWulf
In the Citadel armory, I believe, that there be stocked one model rifle that everyone is qualified with.
DeleteIn an emergency they can be issued a rifle and ammo. Not all people will be close to their 'comfort' rifles.
The armory needs to be in a easy accessable location.
Also, what is the amount of ammo that each resident of the Citadel will need to stock for their personal weapons?
I don't mind the standard rifle requirement. That makes sense since if we ever need to defend ourselves it would be much easier to share ammo (and you won't have to worry about grabbing the wrong magazine).
DeleteI'm not so keen on making a standard sidearm. I personally carry a S&W M&P.40. I have mentioned previously why (size of my hands, etc). I don't mind so much standardizing on the most common calibers, but I believe there are too many variables in handgun selection to say you have to keep "this" gun. Plus, it makes sense to me that I would be fighting with my everyday carry weapon because it is what I am familiar with. If it is decided that everyone must have a 1911, but not necessarily carry it at all times, people aren't going to become as proficient with that as their everyday carry piece. Take me, for example, I plan to own one of the III 1911's, but unless it fits my hand as well as my M&P I won't be carrying it or shooting it regularly. So I'll be more effective with my M&P. Then throw in a scenario where we have to use our 1911's and I'll be wasting more ammo than I would with my M&P (I mean I would be missing more... possibly a lot more).
Damn, sorry I keep getting so long winded.
At first, I couldn't think of any good reason to standardize on a sidearm. It would mostly be just for personal protection. Then I thought about our expectation of social and economic collapse. In that case, parts and repair become an issue over the long term. The Citadel armory would have the parts and expertise to do those repairs, ensuring everyone had a functioning sidearm, even in a long term emergency.
DeleteVJ
On a year supply of food per person in a household. I have found that Costco offers a years supply of food stuff for a single person with a shelf life of 25 years for $1200. Here is the link to check for yourself;
ReplyDeletehttp://www.costco.com/9687-Total-Servings-1-Person-1-Year-Food-Supply-By-Shelf-Reliance.product.100003177.html
Might be a viable solution for those concerned and maybe we could get a group price. Just a thought.
MAJ Wolf
Unless people are already hard core preppers, I would imagine they would want to wait to move to the Citadel to start their 1 year food storage requirement, because it would be expensive to move all of that.
ReplyDeleteHopefully at that point we would have a co-op/buying club set up.
I am working through several ways we can set up the functioning of the Citadel regarding housing, arms requirements, food/prep requirements.
DeleteI think in some cases it may be suitable to have the food/preps/required firearms as part of the lease itself - when a resident agrees to live in the Citadel, when he moves into the home, it already has the required preps/arms.
It will require a bit of creativity on the financing side, but it may be a good option for some residents. For others, they may already have their preps and firearms needs covered.
The link above from Major Wolf to the 1 year supply of food looks pretty good to me, though I haven't done much shopping for one year pallets. Bill Nye is very well-versed in this topic, and even offered to help people with finding the best prices, deals of important seeds, et cetera. Anyone looking for some insight should touch base with Bill at: https://sanjacintocountyoutlaw.wordpress.com/
In the meantime I'll keep working on ways that we can help people get into a home, stocked with essentials, for as little cash as possible.
K
check out the morman cannaries they have the been preping for ever.a system like that would be best cost efective .It is a church run system like the III ARMS concept and can be incorperated into the comunity.
DeleteGood conversation...at last. Reasonable ideas. Seems like reasonable people involved. I've read the the III Percent book.
ReplyDeleteDiffcult times requires making difficult decisions.
I hate rules and regulations. With that said I like everyone else have lived with them my entire life. There is nothing wrong with setting up rules or guidelines or standard operating procedures.
ReplyDeleteThe rules presented are reasonable and of course can be tweeked. Somewhere down the line a committee will have to be chosen or elected or whatever to draft the final version. Which than brings us to the command structure being discussed on the other thread.
I added this to Rule 4: Every able-bodied Patriot will be responsible for maintaining an Emergency Go Bag or Muster Kit to satisfy the Minuteman concept. Details TBD.
DeleteIt will be a basic fighting kit - ammo, knife, water, etc. We can work out the details elsewhere.
K
In reading the comments I have some concerns: As far as the stocks for a negligent discharge this sounds like one of those idiotic zero tolerance rules. (I do realize at this point that it is a discussion and nothing is being carved in stone.) Will there be rules against discharging a firearm within the Citadel walls? If so then the constable should handle the incident. This reads as though the rules (State and County) will not apply in the Citadel.
ReplyDeleteAnon: united States and Idaho laws are in full effect, though on private property with voluntary agreements, we will have latitude.
DeleteI do not see any sort of "police force" within the Citadel, nor are we the sort to call local LEO. We expect those who will choose to live among us to be grown-ups and police themselves, and man-up when/if there is an incident.
In the case of accidental discharges, I am not sure of the percentages, but I suspect about 99.9% of incidents are human error rather than mechanical. In a heavily populated town, filled with tourists and kids, this is one of those mental errors that must be top-of-mind at all times, for everyone.
"Whoops, my bad!" just isn't going to be enough in some circumstances.
K
The point of voluntary association, mutual contract and arbitration is that there is no central authority that goes around looking for "criminals". The only time the question of responsibility and/or discipline comes up is if one of the citizens of the Citadel brings a complaint against another, then the rules of arbitration kick in.
DeleteIf no one feels that they have been harmed in any way, there will be no action. If someone shoots a hole in their own floor, once, very possibly no one will complain. Someone who shoots a hole in the neighbors house, or fires outdoors or any other act that clearly endangers others, or has a history of negligence will almost certainly have a complaint filed against them. The "harmed" party is the one who asks for compensation or other action to remedy the situation. Arbitration is used to decide what, if anything, should be done.
We would likely have guidelines for situations like this where their is no damage to be compensated for, so that the remedy wouldn't be arbitrary. That is why we are hashing this out now, so we are all know what we are getting into.
A clear, voluntary contract, signed by responsible adults who have a common goal is a powerful tool to make this idea work. The expectation of adult behavior from you, by all those around you, is far more powerful than any law could be.
VJ
I have another question, relating to item number 2: "demonstrate proficiency with the rifle of his choice by hitting a man-sized steel target at 100 yards with open sights at the Citadel range"
ReplyDeleteThe only rifle I have that has open sights is a Ruger 10/22. All of my other rifles have some sort of optic, and my AR has an Eotech red dot. There is no magnification on my Eotech, but it is technically not open sights. While I have no trouble hitting a man-sized target at 100 yards with my 10/22, I think I would much rather qualify using my "duty" weapon.
Perhaps the wording should be changed somehow to allow optics with no magnification.
Or, I simply suck it up and qualify with my 10/22 (because I'm certainly not taking the Eotech off now that I've got it sighted in)
"demonstrate proficiency with the duty rifle by hitting a man-sized steel target at 100yrds with open sights"
ReplyDeleteBy having the AR15 as a duty rifle, there could be a "qualifying rifle" with open sights that everyone uses to qualify while their personal rifle may be customized.
RedWulf
Why would I trad one tyrant for another?
ReplyDeleteUse the Constitution as a base for your Patriot Agreement. Eliminate some of the liberal pollution and limit government.
For example to make it a law to carry is taking away my freedom and liberty. Loss of lease does not allow me to have property rights, a core liberty from our founding fathers.
Understand the difference of lay and social norms. I accept some of there items as good social norms. However, making them a law is just as appalling as taking our rights away.
Wake up. LIBERTY First.
Anon: You would not be trading one tyrant for another. The US Constitution, DoI and BoR will be more faithfully followed on our 640 acres than probably any other piece of America.
DeleteYou "would" be volunteering to accept a set of standards to meet the needs of the community, as will every other resident.
In your desire for "Liberty" what if you are the only resident in the Visitors Center one morning along with a dozen tourists, and Batman starts shooting? You'll be the one guy out of 3500 families who had to be different and not wear your sidearm that day, and now tourists are dead.
This is all voluntary. You do not "have" to do anything you choose. But, you can't live here without accepting the same agreement as everyone else.
When you "choose" to join the military, you will wear their clothing, eat their food, use the weapons assigned. When you join the Boy Scouts you will wear their uniform and follow their rules. When you "choose" to become a doctor, you "will" learn chemistry.
If you "choose" to live within the Citadel, you "will" accept the same terms everyone else accepts to protect and defend the ground beneath our feet.
It is all your choice.
Liberty.
K
What about property rights? Would you actually own your home or would it only be a lease and there is no right to ownership?
ReplyDeleteAnon: III Arms was created to generate revenue to buy the property for the Citadel and build it. So, the property will belong to a legal entity, not any person.
DeleteWe've discussed this extensively. The primary reason for using a Lease Model is because we want to keep Liberals and Establishment ideologues.
Consider if the Liberals decide they don't like our Patriot community, and they buy a dozen or two lots/houses inside the Citadel. The could start all kinds of lawsuits and general trouble that would ruin the town, literally making it a ghost town.
Also consider a Patriot who owns his home in the Citadel dies and leaves his property to a batshit crazy Commie from Kalifornia - the entire town would face the same threat of endless lawsuits and bankrupt it.
So, all Citadel property will remain Citadel-owned, and Leases will be granted for life. The only reason anyone could ever lose their lease is if they willfully violate the Patriot Agreement.
Looking at our little informal poll on the right column, about half of our Patriots will go the Lease route, and half will simply buy property near the Citadel (many will buy private because the largest plot available inside the Citadel is 1 acre - space is limited).
K
Perhaps a stupid question...however, what about pet ordinances? I am thinking specifically of dogs that are allowed to bark incessantly 24/7? Dogs allowed to run free doodling up the yards of others? Are we going to leave this up to the discretion/discipline of our citizen dog owners?
ReplyDeleteI would say that if your neighbor's dog trespasses on your (leased) property, and he refuses to take responsibility, arbitration would solve it. The same goes for a dog that barks "too much".
DeleteThis ain't gonna be like any community you've ever seen, and solutions will be easy.
(That being said, in my mind's eye, I wistfully see chickens, ducks, goats, and pigs roaming freely inside the walls, like in Medieval movies. Sorry. I realize it's not gonna happen. Would give a new meaning to "stepping out to pick up dinner", though.)
I'm afraid any rooster who woke me up at sunrise after I had a late shift at the factory or the main gate would quickly end up in a stew pot. At that point our intrepid arbitrator(s) would have to decide the relative value of sleep vs. the rooster. ;-)
DeleteVJ
Ala "Renaissance Faire". Yeah, I get it. Would drive the tourists crazy. "Omidgod, little Johnny has chicken poop on his shoes"! heh heh heh.
ReplyDeleteI think we have an Agreement.
ReplyDeleteSorry to come to this conversation so late, but I've been away from internet access for the last 3-4 weeks. I took a freelance job with a previous employer just I have just recently returned from completing.
ReplyDeleteThree Questions:
1. Does not article Four contradict articles Two and Three? If I choose to qual on weapons of my choice (and use them as my primary battle rifle and sidearm), then why would I be mandated to have the "X rifles X calibers X handguns? Unless the III is buying other arms for me, I'm sticking with my .45 ACP sidearms and my .308 M1A SOCOM. I understand the arguments regarding compatibility, but some of us (well, o.k., maybe just me) don't do .223/5.56 weapons or 9mm, etc. At 52, I stick with weapons I have been using for years. If this (article Four) is set in stone, I'll opt out of the living inside the Citadel. If, on the other hand, Article Four will include a choice/list of acceptable arms, then this will be a non-issue for me (as long as .45ACP and .308 is on the list).
2. Article Eleven. Clarification please...millerized talks "stocks" in his comments, but the Article reads "stockade." Two VERY different things. If I screw up, sure, you can throw me in the stockade. If I screw up, and you want to throw me in the stocks, bring alot of friends and plenty of ammo as you will need both. I'd let no man/woman lock me in stocks on public display. You and I will die first.
3. Regarding "property rights," leases and homes. Is the III going to be owner of the homes and be leasing them as well to residents? Or just leasing the land? If it's just the land, a lawyer will need to clarify/define for us what are the Idaho property rights to the actual resideence. If I lease land from the III and use my money and sweat to put up a home, then if I am expelled there's going to be legal ramifications (I assume) as to the physical building and its infrastructure. Do I get to pump 5 truckloads of cement down the well I drilled if/when I get expelled? Do I get to bring in heavy machinery from outside (as the III would be shunning me) to RIP OUT my concrete footing (oh, and oops, sorry about all that torn up road and verge caused by the III requirement that I take all my property with me when I leave), etc. There's gotta be some serious legal issues associated with this sort of thing...and I hope we're getting legal advice on it (someone up on both Idaho AND Federal law...I can see someone who gets booted going all Equal Opportunity/Discrimination, etc., on us in a Federal court).
Just my 3 cents.
Oh, and despite my loathing of .223/5.56, I still plan on buying at least one, probably two of the III Arms platforms....someone in the extended family (someone more....girly) can use them. 8-)
Fuzzy
Fuzzy,
DeleteThe fact that you are planning to buy at least one AR does satisfy the requirement. Since most of us either already own one or will buy one from the company the requirement is mostly a formality.
From a practical standpoint, we are thinking long term. We have to consider the possibility of being on our own, possibly for many years. The Citadel armory will have the parts and tools to maintain ARs and 1911s. If parts are no longer available from the outside, we want to make sure everyone still has a functional weapon. Also, over the long term, magazines are a consumable item, so the armory will stock those. If something happens to your preferred rifle, you have a fallback so you aren't unarmed.
Then there is the militia. If you are part of a team or squad, magazine interchangeably has clear advantages. Prepositioned, preloaded magazines is just one of those potential advantages. Very likely though, your squad would welcome someone with a .308 so your weapon would be put to good use.
We are trying to look ahead and figure out what gives us the best chance for long term survival. Your .308 is an excellent weapon. We just think that having the AR as a standard to fall back on if need be makes good sense.
VJ
Hi Fuzzy,
ReplyDeleteWelcome back!
Item 1: The goal is simply to make certain every household has the ability to eat ammunition of various calibers, in case the SHTF aspect of the world goes on for a while and certain calibers become scarce. Every Patriot will go to the Green with his preferred weapons, whatever they may be. The objective is simply to ensure every household can eat every major ammo if necessary. As to qualifying, I'd lean toward every Patriot choosing his own rifle/handgun of at least 9mm and .223 - perhaps with a qualifier for folks who intend to shoot lesser powered rounds for realistic reasons. (Say an older guy just can't take the recoil of his preferred .308 and intends to shoot Bad Guys from his front porch with a .22 LR - as long as he can make the steel ring, he's golden I would think.
The Citadel will have a community armory that will stock some of the "less common" ammo and firearms, such as .38/.357, .44 Spl/.44Mag, .30-06, et cetera. But the top few calibers should have firearms in every home: 5.56 Nato, .308, .45, 9mm, .22lr, maybe even .40 since so many LEO agencies are eating .40 these days.
2: Stocks/stockade - This probably started tongue in cheek with a grain of truth to it. The most powerful tool we will have as a society is willful compliance with the Patriot Agreement. If a resident willfully/knowingly breaks one of the hard rules in the Agreement, the recourse open to the community is limited to: The "Guilty" party willfully accepting the mild rebuke and humiliation, or shunning by the entire community, or loss of lease. Men and women screw up. We need a "punishment" that does not immediately go to "Your evicted". But, obviously, no man or woman in the Citadel will ever put their hands on another resident to enforce the rules. Either the Guilty mans-up and takes his medicine, and all is well again, or he has to leave. Every choice is just that - a voluntary choice.
The true key here is that most of the people who want to live in the Citadel are live-and-let-live people aqnyway. There will be a very minimal amount of BS between neighbors, I would think. And most disagreements will probably be worked out between the parties without ever becoming an issue for the larger community.
3: All property within the Citadel will be owned by a legal entity, probably an LLC at first that is fed revenue from III Arms as well as it's own revenue streams (leases), then evolving into a Foundation or Trust or some other form of objective legal set-up that can survive the generational changing of the Guard.
Inside the walls, the Citadel (the legal entity) will construct all housing and community buildings, and own all of the property. Leases will be for the lifetime of the resident, except for violations of the initial Agreement. The Citadel will build the house, the lessee will be responsible for finishing it inside and exterior as he/she chooses. Infrastructure will be installed by the Citadel - water, power, et cetera.
Each resident inside the walls will get to choose from a limited quantity of lot sizes, and then pick from a limited number of home designs and sizes (square footage), which will determine the cost of the lease.
Founders have a modified agreement on this topic, that should remain private.
All of these are reasons we have decided that the Citadel should own everything inside - to be able to control who gets in (It would suck if a few Liberal troublemakers had property rights inside the walls), to reduce the ability for frivolous lawsuits from people who simply want to shut down the community by busting it financially, to a voluntary and binding agreement for the common defense.
From our very unscientific poll on the right of the blog, it looks like about 1/2 of III Pioneers are choosing to purchase private property outside the walls, probably for property rights, or for larger plots of land than they could get inside the walls, et cetera.
K
One more thought to add to the discussion. As we are making these choices, picture yourself inside the Citadel as the gate is being shut on a collapsed society. Think about not knowing if it will be days, weeks or even years before it might be opened again on anything resembling a normal world.
ReplyDeleteThink about how bad it would feel to be saying to yourself, "I Sure wish we had prepared better" or "I sure wish we hadn't decided that _______ was too much trouble". Let's try to get some 20-20 hindsight now instead of after the gate closes.
VJ
"But, obviously, no man or woman in the Citadel will ever put their hands on another resident to enforce the rules. Either the Guilty mans-up and takes his medicine, and all is well again, or he has to leave. Every choice is just that - a voluntary choice."
ReplyDeleteMy opinion...stick to that carefully and you'll succeed beyond even your (even your!) wildest dreams. You gotta have a cornerstone and that looks like a mighty wise one to me.
The rules and conversation were some of the most reasonable I've read in some time. Well done.
ReplyDeleteBTW, got my Go Bag. The 163. Very pleased.
If you discuss every thing out in the open. tptb will Waco the hell out of you. Instead have the people make a visit. deminstrate commitment, ability, determination. Discuss important matters such as prepperations in private, face to face. you are more likely to succeed. alberto alcala III
ReplyDeletemy wife and i(65 & 60 respectively) have begun discussions regarding relocating to the West, specifically to be a part of the III movement... her initial response was all-in positive... now on to the details and feasibility...
ReplyDeletei too am in favor of "face-to-face" meetings for situations like this... we're in Maine but headed to the South for vacation around Christmas... i'm willing to share a cup of coffee with anyone who is firmly rooted in the overall effort and can speak for it... answer me here or here: godfamilycorps@hushmail.com
I am elated to hear from such like minded people. however I am thinking of vacationing in the "Citadel" some time after the first thaw so I can visit with a tent and minimum amount of gear; should the citadel turn out to be nothing more than a detention center. I can leave one way or another with minimum loss of property.
ReplyDeleteI have been looking through the site for some time, and have not yet found any further discussion of the proposed education system and only the quick references here to governance. Are there other threads that discuss this in more detail?
ReplyDeleteAndrew
Andrew: Try IIICitadel.blogspot.com and IIICitadel.com.
DeleteThe education system hasn't been fleshed out yet, except that we intend to follow whatever State guidelines may require for establishing our own K-12 facility with teachers we select. Many of our families currently home-school, it is possible the community may ask some of the parents to teach in a school setting.
Governance is simple: Abide the Patriot Agreement, Idaho and USG laws. If there is ever a problem between residents that can't be sorted out between them, the Patriot Agreement has an item discussing arbitration.
But there will not be a Mayor or town council or any other "governing" body.
K
Thanks for the quick reply Kerodin; I've looked through those other two sites. While I admire the ideals behind the social fabric of this enterprise, I question their applicability on the scale being proposed, particularly given the contingencies that the Citadel anticipates. Is expecting thousands of people (website says the goal is up to 7000 families) to live together like this without some kind of more organized social structure realistic? Is there any historical precedent? Whether the settlements in Colonial America, the city-states of Greece, the towns of the Vikings, or the tribes of the indigenous Americans, all had some form of local governing body.
DeleteI understand that in these times of relative peace and in the low-population early stages of the project, relying on the inherent goodness of men, mediation, and the over-watching governmental bodies already in place may be sufficient, what happens in a post-crunch environment? While drawing up plans for that potentiality may be sensitive, it seems of vital importance given that the full purpose of the Citadel's community would only be realized at such a time as when the governmental services which can now be relied on to provide regulatory oversight are incapable of doing so.
Times of crisis require fairly narrow and linear 'chains of command.' The leadership within, authority over, and responsibility for the militia under arms as well as for the broader community during times of crisis is unclear, and seems to be a critical element in this endeavor. There has obviously been a great deal of work put into this project, and I applaud you all on that effort, but if this long chain is any indication, perhaps less time spent talking about guns and more time spent talking about the less sexy elements of society would be more helpful and informative to interested parties such as our family.
Is there anyone in particular looking at the education angle of this project to whom I should direct further inquiries? The website mentioned a potential boarding school, and from my limited research and experience I know takes a great deal of administrative setup before the doors can open.
By the way, after we read through this we had an idea regarding the house 'award plaques' that were recommended in lieu of badges/patches. Perhaps putting those plaques in a central meeting hall or lodge would ensure visibility and prominence to citizens of the community without marring the potential tourist impression of the site. This amplifies the plaques' social weight by placing these public awards in a venue where their presence or absence can add their weight to debate and discussion about communal decisions.
Andrew