This post should not be taken as a personal rebuke of the recent conversations had on below posts or regarding any of the participants.
I take the position that I have a Natural Right to Jefferson's definition of Rightful Liberty.
I take the position that any deliberate infringement of that Rightful Liberty is an infringement I have no duty or obligation to avoid or tolerate. It is not my responsibility to make sure you behave yourself.
I take the position that any direct action to infringe my Rightful Liberty morally entitles me, under Natural Law, to be rid of that infringement by any means necessary. I do not believe Natural Law holds me to any standard of Proportionate Response.
I take the position that any Human Being who aids and abets the infringement of my Rightful Liberty is equally responsible for that infringement as the person who is directly infringing. If a Trooper points a pistol at my head in an attempt to violate my Rightful Liberty, and doing so as a result of the orders given by a Commanding Officer, both are responsible and both legitimate targets of my self defense, even if I must travel a thousand miles to find your Commanding Officer and put a knife in his neck while he sleeps in his bed next to his wife.
I take the position that the politician who voted for the law that improperly brought that Commanding Officer into my life, and the Trooper with the pistol at my head, is equally guilty of attempting to infringe my Rightful Liberty.
The Voter who voted for that politician is equally guilty. The clerk in the politicians office who helps him accomplish his daily tasks of infringing Rightful Liberty, is equally guilty. The auto mechanic working at the LEO carpool that kept the Trooper's vehicle operational so he could come to my house and stick the muzzle of his weapon in my face is equally guilty.
Do you understand?
It is MY Rightful Liberty. It is MY duty to defend it. If you try to take it, if you play any role in trying to take it, you are guilty of trying to deprive my Rightful Liberty given to me by Natural Law.
Jim Klein is correct, mens rea is a principle to be heeded by any man with a conscience. The Trooper holding the pistol to my head, his Commanding Officer, and the Politician are absolutely guilty of attempting to unjustly infringe my Rightful Liberty. In their Souls there is no innocence. The clerk who delivers the warrant from office A to office B is guily, she is a cog in the machinery that allows it to happen, but she is guilty to a lesser degree.
But the voter...
The voter empowers it all. A voter in San Francisco helped to bring that Trooper to my sphere, and to point that muzzle at my head, risked my future and the future of my wife, because that voter is, at best, stupid. At worst, an ideological Marxist to some degree, people who believe they have a Right to a portion of my Rightful Liberty.
I challenge all of you who claim the title Patriot: Figure this out in your Soul now. Do not make Lincoln's mistake and leave too many Enemies on the field.
Alexander never had to look to his rear.
Let us be done with this once and for all.
Alexander is the only hope for Liberty.
Kerodin
III
I have to admit that I have never thought the whole thing through as you just iterated.
ReplyDeleteBut as I think about it, I suppose there were a great many "cogs" in the Nazi final solution. For instance, a young woman in an office somewhere processing paperwork for food, ammo, chemicals, clothing, building materials, etc. that contributed directly to people stepping in to a gas chamber.
I have a new view to consider now. Gonna have to mull it over for a while. But I do see the light in it.
I'm gonna need a lot more ammo.
Or a good axe.
DeleteEven if those people said they would change, 80% of them wouldn't, so that gives a clearer perspective, in a certain fashion.
ReplyDeleteAlan, there will most likely be a lot of ammo available depending on the circumstance ;) why let it go to waste?
I was having lunch with a really good friend the other day. As usual we ended up talking politics and he mentioned that he voted for Obama. This was a total shock, I had no idea at all that he had done that. I didn't know how to respond and so I said nothing for a little while. His response to the silence was "so now I'm the bad guy?". The only thing I could come up with was "you own it, good luck". Weak response I know, but I was in shock. This was someone that I had thought of linking up with when TSHTF. He was in the Corp and all....
ReplyDeleteNow not only is that out of the question, but I will be ending our friendship - because he voted for my slavery.
This is a hard thing we're doing.
Chuck M.
I never in my life wanted to kill another human being. However when then this goes hot not if when. Then lets not make the mistake of Vietnam etc. No half ass war. I will not be a prisoner if we must kill then kill them all. Harsh cold blooded words from a man who doesn't even crush spiders in my apt I take em out side.Live and let live. But the tyrants will not let us live. With a heavy heart if there be war lets win the damn thing. Deguello No quarter asked none given,you come against us you die! Death to Tyrants and Traitors!
ReplyDeleteChina
III
P.S. I am not a badass nor do I want to hurt anyone,but if its me and mine or them and theirs. Well my children and grandchildren will not be slaves or victims of any Tyrant as long as I have breathe in my body! I truly dispise war and on my home land. But we are a republic NOT a democrasy. Time draws very near to put up or shut up!
ReplyDeleteChina
You're sure hittin' some principles. I don't even want to touch the legal aspect, mainly because it doesn't matter to me.
ReplyDeleteI already acknowledged that you might be able to make a moral case for this POV. None of it's technically false, after all. But the REAL moral issue is that any such analysis doesn't matter a whit. Why? Because it's YOUR moral position and ALL moral positions inhere exclusively to individual minds. You choose it; you live it. My opinion of it really has nothing at all to do with anything about it. Nor does anyone else's.
Here's your problem, though. The same is true of every other person, and presumably you want to interact and deal with other people, at least to your benefit. If every person that you deal with has to wonder if every step they take is seen by you as potentially interfering with your rights, then THEY won't want to deal with YOU.
So it's not so much a matter of whether you're right or wrong, but rather whether or not it serves your purposes. THAT would be the only manner in which it's wrong. Even in the absence of any Rule of Law, if this POV were strictly held, it would make the holder a complete outcast since who wants to deal with someone who might turn on a dime and start trouble because he imagines the other guy is somehow indirectly infringing on his Rightful Liberty? It's much easier to discern who ACTUALLY is infringing on one's Rightful Liberty.
It's sort of like the problem with extreme racism. If some guy hates white people, that's no skin off my back, but if he's in the habit of shooting white people because he hates them, then I'd just as well not interact with him. To me, they're both immoral in a fashion, but I only care about one of them. Also, you might notice that only one of them is worthy of my engaging self-defense against. This is WHY the NAP is what it is, because ACTUAL infringements on Rightful Liberty are ALL exclusively of a PHYSICAL nature. The rest is theoretical, built of imagination. Like I say, it's not so much that it's false or wrong; it's that it doesn't matter.
Plus, you're holding yourself to an impossible standard of being a mind reader. Some people voted for Obama because they want to hurry things up, and those people might be plain allies of yours in all respects. But their vote was the same as the Marxist vote, so now you'd have to be clairvoyant to know the difference.
Why not just take the easy route? "Don't mess with me and I won't mess with you."
Jim: Why not just take the easy route? "Don't mess with me and I won't mess with you."
DeleteHow about "You've (Blue Voter) already messed with me, now time to pay for it..." ;)
K
Fallacy of Tu Quoque, but almost nobody here is ready to hear about that at all.
Delete"The voter empowers it all."
ReplyDeleteRight. That's why rational men have known for thousands of years now, that Democracy is one of the greatest evils going. This isn't news---why do you think a bunch of looters keep touting it and a bunch of moochers keep believing it?
"It's sort of like the problem with extreme racism. If some guy hates white people, that's no skin off my back, but if he's in the habit of shooting white people because he hates them, then I'd just as well not interact with him. To me, they're both immoral in a fashion, but I only care about one of them. Also, you might notice that only one of them is worthy of my engaging self-defense against".
ReplyDelete-Kerodin
Hang on a sec, you devote an entire post to "Racists", complete with a picture of a skinhead & swastika...
http://iiipercent.blogspot.com/2012/12/racists.html
But switch your OWN words up, " If some guy hates BLACK people, that's no skin off my back, but if he's in the habit of shooting BLACK people because he hates them, then I'd just as well not interact with him".
I also remember a post about hypocrisy...
http://iiipercent.blogspot.com/2012/12/hypocrisy-and-paths-we-walk-to-be.html
So let me get this straight, it's OK in your stated view (linked) for Blacks to be racists but not Whites, and THAT is not hypocritical?
Maybe you should clarify your position before I pack up the family & head to Idaho.
Thanks in advance.
Ryker: I'm going to give you one shot at this, because I think you simply made a mistake. The opening quote, attributed to me, please source it. Once you source it we'll check it for context.
DeleteIf it is mine (I could find no such reference, but that doesn't mean much, I write prolificly) then the phrase "To me they're both immoral..." clues me that something is being taken out of context.
Once you source it we'll continue.
K
Hey Ryker...I'm the one who wrote that paragraph and I chose "white" only because I happen to be white. Plus, everyone always chooses "black" and I tend to be contrarian.
DeleteThe point remains regardless of which particular collective is chosen. Another guy believing you or me to be idiots is no skin off our backs, but another guy believing that we're idiots and that idiots ought to be exterminated, is. Hopefully that makes it clearer.
Me, I see nothing but individuals out there anyway. The battle has ALWAYS been individualism versus collectivism.
Ryker: Are we good?
DeleteIf I ever found a group of guys about to hang an otherwise innocent man based only on his skin color, and I don't care if that skin color is black, white, orange - I'm getting involved and I'm going to try to stop that hanging.
No man or woman should ever be judged by any factor beyond their personal control.
Hope we're good.
K
Sam, while I understand and partly agree with you, I also agree with Jim Klein's POV on this. We can carry this to the Nth degree if we want....if you as a citizen of the USA follow the law and pay your taxes (Fed, state and/or local), then you are funding the opressors who are infringing my Rightful Liberty, ergo all tax payers are then fair targets. Should we all commit suicide today, or just stop paying our taxes? What about the office supply store owner who sells paper to the gov office that draws up those detention/arrest papers? Or the worker at the power plant that supplies the power to the building that houses said office? Or the owner of the cafe across the street from that office who sells sustenance to those who draft those orders? They're all indirectly supporting the attacks on my Rightful Liberty too, but they're not responsible for those attacks.
ReplyDeleteFuzy: You and Jim are both right, we could take this all the way to Reductio ad absurdum .
DeleteMy litmus test is still being fleshed-out. You'll note that Miller will never sell a III Arms weapon to anyone of .gov letterhead. We can't expect the same from Ruger, S&W, etc.
Right now I personally draw the line at what I consider to be the "Low-hanging fruit". Government workers who facilitate violations of the Constitution - guilty. That means the clerk who delivers the warrant for arrest for the guy smoking weed is guilty - as is the judge who signed it and the LEO who do the No-Knock, the van driver who takes the arrested person into lock-up and the people running the lock-up.
Marxist voters who knowingly and actively advocate unconstitutional acts - guilty.
Hell, that's enough work alone for several lifetimes, and I don't think anyone would disagree that our world would immediately become a better place if those 2 groups of people suddenly became Mexicans.
K
K, my apologies. I attributed Jim's quote to you by mistake.
ReplyDeleteNo worries. ;)
DeleteK
Alexander and Gaul
ReplyDeleteWhere would it end?
(When there was no one left to kill, I suppose...)
Do we really want this to be Alexander and Gaul? To carve such a swathe through our 'enemies' that there is nary a soul left? To have the next RevWar be the largest massacre in the history of the world, approaching over 200+ million people? Because you just know that the numbers of people that would have to be put down as 'enemies of liberty' is probably even greater than that. You'd have a lot of orphan children and no where to put them. Which is the only reason why I didn't say 300+ million people. Unless you include them as guilty by association of their Marxists parents, and view them as nonredeemable. I'm sure they'll be real friendly to those who killed their parents.
If I went through the list of my neighbors, and put a mark beside all those who voted Democrat, or all those who were R and voted for a Marxist candidate, thereby using your method of discernment for who is a traitor or enemy of liberty...
Considering that the Marxist voters you mention will encompass just about everyone...
I'd be practically the only individual left in my neighborhood.
So in short, you're telling me that I have a moral right and/or duty to effectively execute my neighbors, most of whom I've known all my life, and the vast majority of whom who are good older people who would step in front of a bullet for my children, without hesitation?
You said:
“The Voter who voted for that politician is equally guilty. The clerk in the politicians office who helps him accomplish his daily tasks of infringing Rightful Liberty, is equally guilty. The auto mechanic working at the LEO carpool that kept the Trooper's vehicle operational so he could come to my house and stick the muzzle of his weapon in my face is equally guilty. “
The fecking mechanic?
Why stop there? What about the company rep who provided them the gasoline and oil to run their fleet of cars? How about the manufacture of the BULLETS and/or the FIREARM that sold them to the Trooper so he could come to your house and stick the muzzle of his weapon in your face? Aren't they equally guilty. How about the maker of the handcuffs, or the guy who sold them to the department, so they could cuff people and infringe upon their liberties? What about the seamstress that sews the little insignias and such on the uniforms? What about the drycleaner they use?
Your example as stated is utterly ridiculous to the nth degree, as using that paradigm virtually anyone and everyone could be targeted and listed as an 'enemy of liberty', and it would encompass most of the world.
But one thing is for certain... You've got a lot of killing to do.
Janos: Sadly, you are pretty new to my writing and I have several columns that are far more nuanced than this exchange. Somewhere during this discussion Jim and I discussed the concept of mens rea and how, obviously, each and every case would require proper due diligence - not wholesale, mindless, gratuitous slaughter.
DeleteHere's a simple fact: The General who orders the Private to violate my Rightful Liberty is as guilty as the Private. And the Comms guy who delivers that order from General to Private is just as responsible. Each person in that chain is guilty of violating my Rightful Liberty, and I have a Right to proactively defend myself from those people.
Final point: Please note that I have said several times that execution is the last option, and most people conveniently ignore that I ALWAYS say option one is to tell those people to leave. Option 2 is to make them leave. Option 3 is for people who refuse to leave and refuse to stop infringing Rightful Liberty, and they are subjected to Article III trials held by We the People, the true source of legitimate Government.
The ideal of Rightful Liberty is the most noble I have ever encountered as regards Man interacting with fellow Man. But it is not free, and it is not easy, for it is in the nature of most Men to seek to be Masters.
I can be for Rightful Liberty while at the same time being totally ruthless to those who would take it from me.
Kerodin
III
"...for it is in the nature of most Men to seek to be Masters."
ReplyDeleteNah, not even close. Lucky us, else we wouldn't even be here. No society would've ever formed.
Even the FSA wouldn't qualify for this charge. Hell, most of 'em wouldn't even understand it! Maybe their laziness can be bought easily enough, but a ton don't realize that the loot has to be taken from somewhere first. They're not seeking to be Masters, I don't think; they're barely seeking anything at all.